Kimkins Controversy

Anyone surfing around the low carb blogs and forums these days can't miss the controversy exploding over the latest low carb plan to hit the newstands: Kimkins.

The very short, very condensed version of this story is that a poster by the handle Kimmer over at Low Carb Friends creating quite a following by proposing that calories actually were important in low-carbing, and too many people were forgetting this. My very first post of this blog described Kimkins like this:

"Kimkins is a stricter version of Atkins Induction, developed by a low carber named Kimmer. The basics of this approach to weight loss are:

- < 20 carbs (no fiber subtraction)

- 70-90 g protein

- just enough fat to make your menus work

- absolutely no low carb treats and very limited cheese

Being this strict ensures a state of real ketosis, symptoms of which include strong appetite suppression and very rapid weight loss. This is a chance to see what it's like.

Warning - not everyone likes the feeling, even if you're losing weight very rapidly."

The way I saw Kimkins back then was as I see the Atkins fat fast, the meat and egg fast, and the protein sparing modified fast I'm currently doing. It's a way to lose weight FAST, but realistically not a permanent way of eating. You have to transition from pure meat & egg at some point, same with the shake deal, same with Kimkins.

So what's all the fuss about?

Unilateral Nutritionism
Jimmy Moore used this phrase this week while defending Kimkins to describe the phenomenon of other low carbers turning against a new or stricter way of eating. I can personally testify to this happening to the Meat & Eggers thread at the Active Low-Carber forums (the first post of which was a description of the Kimmer Experiment!), and also to The Bear's "zero carb" thread. That's why there now exist two spin-off forums: Meat & Eggers For Life, and Active No-Carber Forums, for people who felt their chosen plans were constantly under attack. No doubt there is part of this spirit occurring with the Kimkins bashing. Whether people feel that a stricter plan is an implicit criticism of their own, or a bastardization of Atkins, are jealous of Kimmer's incredible success or genuinely believe this way of eating is unhealthy is hard to say, and I suspect there are folks in each of these camps and more.

Problems with the plan
For the people who want to debate the merits of watching fat as well as carbs, of counting calories and avoiding frankenfoods for clean eating...bring it on! I actually don't have a problem with the Kimkins plan as written - in fact, the shake plan I'm doing now is probably pretty close to one of the Kimkins options, which states you can replace meals with protein shakes. I LOVE losing weight quickly! I understand why people are so motivated by this, and I don't think it's harmful unless you get into a binge and lose cycle, or fail to recognize the need to learn healthy eating habits for maintenance.

The plan behind the plan
Here's where things get a bit sticky, for me. While Kimkins plan as written seems fine and doable and above board, a lot of posters over at Low Carb Friends have described her "plan behind the plan" - Kimmer's advice on her infamous "Ask Kimmer" threads there, which seemed to include some very dubious statements. The following transcript was quoted:

Poster: "Kimmer, I don't know what's happening. I haven't cheated at all and I didn't loose a pound today.?? I ate maybe 4 bites of lean chicken,my coffee and two diet cokes. What causes a stall? Is this normal or is my coffee finally catching up with me? Or could it be bathroon issues? HELP ME KIMMER???"

Kimmer: "*name deleted* what's in your coffee? What about constipation? What kind of chicken? What have you eaten the last 3 days?"

Poster: Coffee:SF carmel 2g carbs,30 cals,2.5 g fat, per tbsp (I use 2 carefully measured) sweet n low (1 packet) 1 cup day. 2 days ago I had 2 cups.
Friday Hardly nothing to eat,c 2 cups coffee,2 diet drinks,water
Saturday,1/4 chicken breast cooked in George Forman w/ salt,coffee my way,Snow cone w/ SF syrup2oz (did not measure) 5 cals,o carbs o fat,2 diet cokes,
Today Roast beef broiled in oven about the size if a tennis ball 1 diet coke,1 cup of coffee.

Kimmer: "...Have you considered taking a mild laxative each night you're doing "protein only"? Or, hate to even suggest it, make up a batch of the horrible Epsom salt solution and take a couple tablespoons each night?..."

Okay...bear in mind, I did NOT witness this conversation as it happened, and this is someone else entirely reporting the conversation. However, from the sheer number of people agreeing that this is exactly the sort of advice she gave, and other similarly disturbing examples of encouraging people to go lower and lower and lower on calories, I'm inclined to believe that this sort of thing was going on.

This advice is patently ridiculous. Anyone who tells you they're eating four bites of chicken and a coffee in a whole day needs, in this order, a big hug and a healthy meal. Many posters describe such a way of thinking as pro-ana (pro-anorexic) and it does set off all sorts of eating disorder warning bells.

HOWEVER...I also think it's possible to separate the pearls from the swine here. She doesn't seem to be giving this kind of advice through any official Kimkins channels, so I think people could follow Kimkins in a healthy way. This is little comfort to the people who had bad experiences with Kimmer over at Low Carb Friends, but taking a step back is necessary to evaluate the plan as it now exists.

Kimmer's identity
Here's where people get all conspiracy-theorist...
Kimmer refused to post pictures other than tiny, blurry avatars for some years, and when she finally did release before/after shots, people questioned whether it was the same person. Here, check out the pictures for yourself and see what you think:

Or check out the shots from the Kimkins site:

Personally, I haven't measured or scrutinized to this degree, but detractors are claiming that specific ratios of the facial features change between pictures, as does arm length.

Others are suspicious of her beautiful skin tone and shapely arms in the red dress picture, which looks more like a 20 year old than a 47 year old.

Here's another picture, Kimmer's avatar picture on Yahoo Answers:

To this I can say a few things: airbrushing works wonders, low carb does great things for the skin, but if I had to put my hand on my heart and swear, I don't think I could say the various pictures Kimmer has posted are all of the same person.

There is also a lot of suspicion over the fact that she has consistently refused in-person interviews and face-to-face meetings, even with some of her most successful followers. Jimmy Moore offered to fly out and meet with her in person, but no dice.

So, who cares? Jimmy Moore in particular seems to be saying that all of this is just a big ruckus about nothing - if the plan works, work it! And don't waste time looking up Kimmer's real name and address and trying to find the real person behind the name.

Critics claim that since she is not a doctor, the real authority behind this plan IS Kimmer, and her testimony about her plan should be backed up by more evidence than just words typed onto internet forums. Her claim that she lost 198lbs in 11 months is what drew people in to begin with, and that should be verified. Personally, I'm curious about why she wouldn't just put all this drama to rest by doing a few interviews in person. I don't think it's the kiss of death to her plan that she's a mysterious, missing person, but it does seem pretty shady.

Affiliate marketing
The Kimkins plan is marketed very successfully through affiliate marketing. This is when bloggers or other internet folks post links to the Kimkins site. When someone clicks on that link and joins the site, the blogger who posted the link gets paid! Woo! Currently, Kimkins affiliates make 25% of the $59.95 membership fee, which is $14.99 per joining member sent by the affiliate. Affiliates who signed up earlier could make up to 30-40% of the join fee.

Okay, this is nothing new in internet marketing. Check out the links to the Amazon books at the side of this site - if you click on and buy those books, I get some money. (I have made approximately 75 cents off this since my blog began, but hey, can't blame a girl for trying!)

The complaint is that various bloggers, including Jimmy Moore, are not being straightforward and open and honest by saying "I make X amount from promoting Kimkins!" There are many Kimkins support sites and blogs cluttered with links, some of which are probably genuine Kimkins-followers who want to share this plan and make a little money while they do so (no problem with that) and others who see this as a chance to make some quick cash and throw up fake sites with fake pictures and fake stories (not very ethical).

I think it's unfair to attack Jimmy in particular for having links and banners up to the site. He has banners and links to all sorts of low carb programs and products all over his blog. This is a guy who spends a huge amount of time each day blogging and reading and researching and responding to people who are curious about low carb life. Why shouldn't he be compensated for his hard work in building a massive readership and huge amounts of traffic to his blog by throwing links and banners up there?

I like Jimmy a lot. Do I think it would be more completely squeaky-clean for him to disclose to his readers that he's making quite a bit of money promoting Kimkins? Sure. Do I think that would fit with his straight-shooting, laying-it-all-on-the-table blogging style? Definitely. But is that holding him to very rigid standards of accountability that aren't necessarily expected elsewhere on the web? Yep, absolutely!

If you tweak it, it isn't Kimkins
Alright, last but certainly not least is the following information to consider from the Kimkins site:

"The original Kimkins Diet:

As much lean protein as desired from the Kimkins Food List

0-20 total carbs per day (no fiber or sugar alcohol subtraction)
0-3 cups List 1 veggies per day  OR
0-2 cups List 1 veggies + 0-1 cup List 2 veggies per day
Use minimal fat to make your menu work (careful, calories count!)
No alcohol or low carb products (sugar free candy, energy bars, ice cream, frozen meals)
Your appetite will reduce naturally after 3-5 days
Take a complete multivitamin each day plus other desired supplements." [My emphasis added.]

Kimmer also clearly states in the instructional section:
"Question: Can I modify the Kimkins Food Lists?

Please don't. If it's not the list [sic], don't eat or drink it!  Remember that Kimkins is a lean low carb plan. The #1 reason for slow weight loss is 'modifying'."

And a quote from Kimmer on Low Carb Friends:
"I hope you won't think I'm a total snot for saying this, but please don't "modify" Kimkins. Just call your plan Atkins instead."

This has people running around yelling that Jimmy Moore isn't in fact doing Kimkins, since he HAS modified it to include some foods he enjoys like Chocoperfection chocolate bars and some low carb wraps. How dare he claim he's losing all this weight from Kimkins, give Kimkins all this credit, when in fact he isn't actually doing Kimkins?

My thoughts on this are first, congratulations to Jimmy for being honest about what he's eating. How much easier would it be to just pretend he's sticking to pure Kimkins, and not have to face any of these detractors?

Secondly, who the heck doesn't modify their eating plans?? Every single person I know on the Meat & Eggers Forum has personalized their plan, some including Cool Whip (why, I have no idea, but hey) and others adding veggies back in, still others carb-cycling.

The important thing here is that Jimmy Moore and countless others have taken the general guiding principle of Kimkins - watch the fat along with the carbs, and calories will limit themselves - incorporated that principle into their diets, and seen amazing results.

I'm not sitting here thinking, "Oh, well, he's not really doing Kimkins, so all this is crap," - I'm thinking "Damn! He's eating all those frankenfoods and STILL losing all that weight? Kimkins is scary fast!"

Scary is right, and that's where I'll finish this gargantuan post. People are scared by fast weight loss for a whole host of reasons, some sound and valid criticisms, others not so worthy of attention. People are rightfully scared by doubts and shadiness about Kimmer's identity, and rightfully worried about the previous disturbing eating disorder-esque advice.

I think it'd be relatively easy to clear up a lot of this fear and doubt and infighting by Kimmer coming clean about her identity and putting the picture doubts to rest once and for all. I wish she'd do that.

I also think that, parsing through all of the fighting and anger and genuine hurt, there's some sound dietary advice to be had from the Kimkins plan as written. Too many low carbers return to Atkins Induction with bad habits from previous low carbing stints - eating frankenfoods, being used to massively fatty portions and overeating, skyrocketing their calorie counts and wondering why the weight isn't dropping off. Kimkins manages to cut out a lot of these problems by stripping Atkins down to the bare essentials (she admits her plan is simply a tweak of the original Atkins from 1972) and limiting fat to what's needed for cooking.

As I wrote last year, I believe this is a very useful tool for dropping you in deep ketosis and stripping your diet down to the bare essentials. You can then add in different foods and experiment with what works for you personally.

And hopefully, hopefully, all of us can sit down over some Kimkins-friendly, Atkins-friendly, Zone-friendly, Stillman's-friendly, Bear-friendly chicken and be friends again.

Comments

[Jimmy Moore]

Hey Kate,

EXCELLENT COLUMN and I appreciate the time you took to write it. Very balanced giving credence to both sides. THANK YOU for doing this!

You'll be pleased to know that I did include a full disclosure today on my podcast show that I make money from the Kimkins and other affiliate/sponsor links.

Incidentally, I didn't think I needed to broadcast to the world I make money off of any advertiser since you don't hear that from television or radio stations. If there's a banner on a web site, I just assume the person who owns that site gets paid. :)

THANK YOU again and I hope and pray this madness over Kimkins ends sooner rather than later!

[OnlineChristian]

Great Blog Post!!! I hope that there is room enough for some of us all to have different ideas about all this and still get along and respect each other (and cheer each other on to success)!!

I sure hate it when people get hateful in their positions and knock one another. I do think however that it is OK to ask questions, and to even come to different conclusions about the same things!

Jimmy Moore is a great fellow and does a great service to the low carb community. I love his enthusiasm and the information he shares. I love learning about all kinds of variations of the low carb way of eating too! He sets a great example and helps alot of people. I admire the way he sticks to his commitment to maintain his losses and to even reach new goals. If Kimkins helps him do that - then great!!!

The problem is that weight loss programs do get to be a kind of religion for some folks. Lots of folks think their way is best.

Also it is *possible* to hurt or kill someone with bad diet advice. People have died from following unhealthy diets before. I dunno how many, but some have.

And we live in a society of all kinds of scams and predatory behavior.

And... there is nothing intrinsically wrong in questioning things and doing research and tests and figuring things out. What would the world be without a little critical thought.

My advice to Jimmy is to ignore the nay sayers and do what he determines is best for himself. I would prefer that he ignore the comments of those who are most visceral in thier attacks against him. On the other hand, it may be helpful to discuss some of issues brought up without over doing it.

There are probably thousands of folks hitting his blog daily and most could probably care less about these attacks or the sidelines going on over all this.

I also appreciate your blog, and learning about Protien Sparing Fasts, Stillmans, and various other alternatives or techniques that can be used to shake things up, reach a certain goal, or break through some plateau if one needs to. I doubt I am personally ready to launch full time into any low calorie low carb way of eating - but I may someday. Who knows? And we all end up lowering our calories as we get closer to our goals anyhow. So in the end the point may even be moot.

Again - great post! Thanks for supporting the low carb way of eating and for supporting Jimmy Moore!! Thanks for a pretty reasonable and even-handed recounting of this whole kaffuffle.

[Trish]

Um ... you do realize that the Yahoo avatar picture is actually that of the actress Jaclyn Smith, right? If Kimmer claimed this was her picture, she should have picked someone who's a little less known.

If someone who claims to be a medical professional tells people to take laxatives and eat 500 calories a day to lose weight and charges them $60 for the privilege, I'd be highly suspicious of them. The fact that Kimmer is not a medical professional makes me even more suspicious. The problem that many have with Jimmy Moore is that he's getting VERY nasty with people asking him legitimate questions about his association with Kimmer. Regina at Weight of the Evidence, a very well-respected low-carb blog, recently cancelled a planned appearance with Jimmy because of this behavior, and she'd been friendly with him for years. Yes, his blog is a money-making venture, but that he would go along with someone who hides behind fake pictures and a screen name--considering that before this he'd been reasonably well-respected--kind of goes against how he tries to represent himself. Kimmer is on the verge of going down, and Jimmy is in very serious danger of going down with her.

[Kate Welch]

Trish,
That's exactly why I posted the pictures - I knew there was something fishy about it. I'm surprised this is actually a famous actress though! For anyone who wants verification:

http://www.jaclynsmith.com/frames.html

I'd never heard of her before, but Jaclyn Smith was best known for playing the role of Kelly Garrett in the television series Charlie's Angels (1976–1981).

As for the 500 calories and laxatives...let me categorically state that those are terrible ideas for healthy weight loss! Do you think it's worthwhile to make the distinction between the plan-as-written, and the advice Kimmer has given over the years (the disturbing "plan behind the plan")?

Or do you feel Kimmer's reputation is so tainted by her previous advice that anything she has to say now should be automatically discounted?

[Trish]

Jaclyn's also been in about eight gazillion miniseries and Lifetime movies too. Bad choice, Kimmer. BAD choice.

Kimmer's "plan" is basically the Stillman diet. It's nothing original, and certainly nothing worth paying sixty dollars for. She has also stated that she once fasted for 41 days drinking nothing but diet soda. Oh yes, I would so take diet advice from this woman. /sarcasm

I just feel bad for the people who were taken in by her believing that she wanted to help, when in fact all she wanted was to be considered some sort of low-carb guru and paid accordingly.

[Sue]

Kate,
You wrote that the shake plan that you are doing is kind of the same thing. In a previous post you said that you were getting between 1100 - 1300 calories per day on your shake plan - psmf. Most of the members doing the kimkins plan are on about 400-600 calories per day for months. That can't be good? How much of the weight loss is coming from their muscles?

[Connie]

You said:

"Too many low carbers return to Atkins Induction with bad habits from previous low carbing stints - eating frankenfoods,"

That exactly describes Jimmy doing Kimkins, bless his heart.

I say - the more words devoted to drama and controversy, the lower the quality of the advice. Nuff said.

[Anonymous]

I just wanted to comment on the Jacky Smith thing. To me this is not valid evidence that she is mis-representing herself. I have seen countless people use celebrities as their avatar. But do I think that the person who has used Lindsay Lohan, or Beyonce, or Angelina Jolie as their avatar are pretending to be that person? NO. Maybe she really likes that particular actress... Sorry, but using that pic as "evidence" bears no weight w/ me.

[Pook]

Are you for real?

Any fan of Jaclyn Smith (I'm old enough to be her fan from Charlie's Angels Days), knows that's Jaclyn Smith, not kimkins (I'm referring to the last photo).

Her diet is a joke. I remember kimkins posting years back on Atkinsfriends.com. There was a ruckous over one of her posts because she, self-proclaimed "expert" of low carb, didn't even have an accurate carb count for Splenda sugar substitute!...among other things pertaining to low carb...

Personally, I think she's stupid nutrition-wise, but smart enough to make a bundle out of her paying website.

I'm always amazed at the gullibility of the paying public.

[pook]

p.s. I definitely feel she misrepresents herself in more ways than one.

There is a reason everyone is outraged.

Oh and Jimmy Moore, yes, sorry, but he definitely has flip-flopped over the low fat issue. Sorry Jimmy, but it's true.

[pook]

Kate, my goodness I just can't leave this topic alone - I have to thank you for your honesty in notifying the public that Jimmy Moore is indeed making money off of Kimkins.

The public has a right to know.

I know you like Jimmy, but really, go back over his posts this last year. He speaks out of both sides of his mouth, on the one hand singing the praises of fats, and then on the other, now saying to lower calories he's cutting fats.

Jimmy you can't have it both ways.

Kate, please ask him about this for us. I've emailed him and he's ignored my posts, for obvious reasons.

[Kate Welch]

Pook,
It sure is one of those niggling topics - even people not on the diet, people who have never been on it, and aren't connected to it in any way other that it being labeled "low-carb" are up in arms about it.

As for Jimmy, I have been in touch with him by email and I am really looking forward to his interview with Kimmer tomorrow!

If you want my opinion on the fat flip-flop, I think a lot of low carbers start off luxuriating in being able to have full fat products again, and thoroughly enjoy the delicious taste. I'm one of them. I love butter and mayo and coconut oil and crispy chicken skin and creamy salad dressings. However, in my experience, as I get closer to my goal weight (especially now I'm within eight lbs), I do need to pay attention to the calories more than I did previously.

I guess the kind of default way of doing that is going back to keeping an eye on fat as well as carbs.

Personally, I know I can go pretty high fat (up to 80%) and maintain very nicely. On higher fat percentage, my skin and hair also look fantastic, and I'm considering this as a maintenance strategy...however, I do not lose weight this way.

I do want to be very clear that I'm not endorsing going below 1000 calories as a healthy weight loss plan. Your calorie count on Kimkins depends which option you choose. The ones that look lowest to me are Boot Camp and Meal Replacement Shake Option, which seem to end up around 800 calories for the day PLUS 30 minutes exercise for Boot Camp. Yikes! The others are basically just eat as much lean protein as you want...and that I have no problem with as a short-term, fast weight loss plan.

[Sue]

Kate, most on the kimkins plan are on 400-600 calories. Yes, you can eat as much lean protein as you like but it doesn't happen - you can only eat so much protein. Because fat consumption alongside it is drastically reduced, and hunger is reduced - calories are very low. Boot camp is 500 calories per day with 30 minutes exercise - talk about stripping lean muscle.

[Chris]

To me, the issues with Kimkins are many, not the least of which is her stand on the value of exercise in the program. Why is no one talking about this? She seems to reduce it simply to its value as a calorie-burner, when in fact the benefits extend way beyond that. Even Dr. Atkins, by the time he wrote DANDR, came to realize just how invaluable physical activity is for those in the low-carb lifestyle. Kimmer's answers to dieters' questions - some of which have been posted here - are alarming to say the least. And people are paying money for this?! "Kimmerexia" about sums it up for me. More people need to get the word out. This is exactly the kind of thing that makes low-carbing look like a joke (and a potentially harmful one at that). Her actual "identity" seems like a separate issue entirely; the details of her "plan" speak for themselves - and are more than damning enough.

[karra]

I think this blog has definitely opened my eyes. I was thinking about doing the Kimkins diet. I am an intelligent person, but I have to admit she makes you believe in the unbelievable. I know weightloss cannot be that quick, but I wanted it so badly I was going to give it a try. I do not want to enjoy one stick of gum all day and call that a meal...(Okay maybe that is over-exaggeration but not by much). I am completely dumb when it comes to low carb. I tried atkins once but admittedly never made it all the way through the book. I would love to lose weight fast. I just wish I had more knowledge of what you have talked about in your posts. This has been wonderfully enlightening for me. Thanks very much. If anyone has any advice or help I would love to hear it. k_d_s@lycos.com

[Samantha]

Does anyone know if Kimmer ever claimed that photo of Jaclyn Smith was her?

[Tracy]

It's not just her photos...many of her posted client B&A pics are obviously false. One actually turned out to be a European model!

Also, members of her site have been banned for things they've said on OTHER message boards...and not bad things either. Others, wanting their money back because all they're getting in return is access to a message board, are being denied refunds.

It's not the diet that's the problem. It's tweaking a couple of established diets, charging people $60 to even read about it, and then lying and using overall shady business tactics that's the problem. The Bear was controversial, but he never offered himself up as a guru...and he sure never charged anyone money to find out how he ate.

Great blog, BTW!

[kittykitty]

I wonder if Jimmy is Kimmer in disquise? Maybe it's his way of making money off of unsuspecting dieters.

[onlinechristian]

I was "blog-tagged" (by "Sparky's Girl") to spill my guts about eight random things about me. I normally don't go for this kinda thing (I don't forward those "cute" chain emails so I guess I'll have bad luck for a gazillion years), but this is all in fun - so I did this one (on my blog). I now have a compelling obligation to tag eight others to also spill their collective guts about eight random things about themselves. So I am tagging some of my favorite low carb bloggers and forum/journal posters to see what they might share about themselves.

So anyhow... Tag, Yer It!

You can read about it here:
http://lowcarblollygagging.blogspot.com/2007/08/blogjournal-tagging-tag-yer-it.html

[Carol Bardelli]

Hi Kate, great entry.

By the way, you've been tagged!

(If you were before just disregard).

The details are at my blog.

Cheers! Carol at Kudos For Low Carb
http://kudosforlowcarb.blogspot.com/

[Sue]

Hi Katie, How's it going? Looking forward to your next post and update.

[MrsB]

I tagged you in a game of Blog-Tag!! (I swear I didn't start it - don't blame me!! Hehe).

[PJ]

Hey! You can't just leave on a post about THAT topic. Come back and post about food, glorious food!! :-) PJ

[someone who knows personally.]

I have known Heidi for 9 yrs and only the first picture of her in the blue shirt is actually her.

[katinsac]

Friends don't let friends do Kimkins! Remember that cover girl on the WW Mag? Well, she learned the hard way about Kimkins and it's dangers!! Read her blog and decide for yourself.

http://the-journey-on.blogspot.com/

[katinsac]

This is one of the key players in the fight against Kimkins and I think you should read her blog...don't foget to search the webring too and see the other great info about this SCAM!

http://honeybeesblog.wordpress.com/

[Say NO to Kimkins]

For more Kimkins info:

http://lowcarbdiets.about.com/b/2008/03/15/march-2008-update-on-kimkins-diet-scam.htm

http://www.insiderexclusive.com/firm_cohen2.htm

http://www.consumeraffairs.com/news04/2008/02/kimkins.html

Say NO to Kimkins!

[Jeff Paul Scam]

I am tagging some of my favorite low carb bloggers and forum/journal posters to see what they might share about themselves.